Editor’s note: After we recorded, Trump’s MAGA-fied Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, joined the anger against “No Kings,” and MAGA influencers chimed in.
It has become very clear that President Donald Trump is really, really worried about the No Kings protests that are scheduled for October 18. Suddenly, multiple Republicans are all using the same disgusting talking point about the protests, referring to them as agitators and terrorists. It sure looks coordinated. They’re all using the same vile language. This really displays extraordinary contempt for our whole political system. Yet we think it’ll backfire. It’ll only prompt the protests to get larger, and there’s nothing Trump hates more than seeing big crowds arrayed against him. Today we’re talking about all this with writer Jill Lawrence, who has a new piece for The Bulwark on Trump’s hatred of our system and of democratic voters. Jill, thanks for coming on.
Sargent: So the No Kings protests are set for next Saturday. Let’s listen to what House speaker Mike Johnson had to say about this.
Sargent: So there you heard Johnson talk about Antifa, pro-Hamas, Marxists, Jill. These are American citizens, millions of them exercising their right to peacefully protest. Your response to what you heard there from Johnson?
The problem here is that people like Johnson and the Republicans in Congress aren’t doing their jobs. They’re not putting any checks and balances on the president, and they’re not upholding American values or even American constitutional rights.
Sargent: Well, they clearly hope for some sort of violence, which either will allow them to respond with violence of their own—state violence—or to demonize the protests as terrorism and extremism. You know, the funny thing about this is, as you alluded to, the more people show up, the more other people feel supported, and it really is a sort of snowballing effect that can take place in these situations. And I think that’s what really worries them.
Sargent: Well, let’s listen to some more GOP rhetoric about this. Here’s representative Tom Emmer.
Sargent: And here’s Senator Roger Marshall.
Sargent: So, Jill, now not only are they calling protestors “terrorists,” but they’re talking about having to bring in the National Guard to suppress descent. What do you make of that?
I mean, it’s a powder keg, and that is what Donald Trump wants. And so now he’s got it. And while this is happening, you know, the government is shut. They’re laying people off. They’re doing more and more things that people don’t like, and nothing’s undercover. Everyone knows what’s going on. It’s just so overwhelming that it’s hard to know how to fight, where to put your attention. You know, what’s the best way you can try to stop this?
Lawrence: Well, it’s tremendously ominous, and it’s so different, well, from the Nixon era — which is what I wrote about for The Bulwark. There were not enough Democrats in the Senate to convict Nixon at an impeachment trial, but there were going to be 85 out of 100 votes to convict him. We didn’t pay enough attention when it was happening.
And so this is, you know, this calls out for huge structural reforms and lots of guardrails, and I’m not sure most Americans realize that this is necessary and what it will take to get them. I’m not sure most politicians even realize that.
That’s really nicely done. This is the hallmark of MAGA and Trumpism, really, which is that they fundamentally treat large swaths of the United States as an enemy country within. Can you talk about that?
You know, it was just—he never made a secret of being on his own team and playing against the other team. And it was such a contrast to Barack Obama and the whole, there’s no Red America and no Blue America, there’s the United States of America. So it was this whole different, very overt partisanship. And if you vote for me, and if you’re not nice to me, I’m gonna cut off your projects. And so we see that—I want to say on steroids, which is a cliché—it’s even worse than that.
So the economy is gonna be tanking. Before long, we’re gonna be going back to someone, a century, two centuries, three—you know, our research is being cut. And now we have RFK Jr., who—you know, the irony of some of these steps that he’s taking, as I mentioned, is that it’s the red states that are gonna be hurt the most. It’s the red states that are gonna listen to RFK Jr. talk about how vaccines could hurt you, you know, or even kill you. It’s the red states that are the agricultural states. So, I mean, it should by all rights backfire, and yet too many people have too big a stake in it all.
But they are selling to their people the notion that they’re making Democratic areas suffer. So you really see this with Trump’s budget chief, Russell Vought. He’s now crowing about the fact that he’s going to pursue layoffs. He’s canceling the funding for programs and projects that are in Democratic areas.
Lawrence: You know, it’s very interesting. I, I don’t know if you saw the other day that Vivek Ramaswamy—he used to be in the inner circle and now is running for office in Ohio—said, let’s stop owning the libs. He said, you know, essentially that’s not enough for a political party, you know. He said, let’s be less confrontational.
Sargent: Trump is deeply unpopular. He’s failing on multiple fronts. His presidency is a disaster. The economy is is on the skids. The tariffs are a catastrophe. He’s admitting, and his own agencies—the Labor Department is admitting—that his mass deportations are screwing the economy in various ways. He’s underwater on his big issue of immigration. He’s underwater on the economy. He’s underwater on everything. He’s got a really low approval rating.
They’re obviously gonna try and supercharge tensions around these peaceful protests to whatever degree they can. I think they’re likely to fail. We’re gonna see very large, peaceful demonstrations.
Lawrence: They’ve successfully turned everything inside out because, you know, their line is that these are ‘hate America’ rallies. These are people who hate America, when they’re the ones who are destroying it. And they’re the ones who are applying labels to people. I mean, they—they’ve been burying for years, since Trump’s first term, any reports or indicators that right-wing violence is the greatest danger, that right-wing extremism is the most common kind of violence in this country. And they don’t want to admit it, and they won’t let their supporters learn about it.
The problem, though, is that in their media ecosystem they will just seize on some little incident to make it true that these protests were violent. So there’s no point at which they ever, ever are held accountable—not by their own media sources, anyway. The only conceivable way we can hold them accountable is with enormous turnout at these rallies and then with a victory in 2026.
Lawrence: Well, we see what’s going on in Portland, with all the sort of cartoon-character costumes being depicted as violent extremists. And, you know, it’s almost laughable, as you said. But they have people believing—as Trump said recently—that there are no stores with regular windows in Portland, that everything is boards in the windows. Well, that’s not how Portland sees it. They go shopping all the time at stores with windows. But, you know, you’re up against a lot here. You’re up against a president not only with a bully pulpit but with a bunch of people who believe everything he says. So I think you’re right: in numbers, there can be evidence.
Sargent: Folks, the right answer to them calling you terrorists is to turn out in as much force as you possibly can. Jill Lawrence, thanks so much for coming on with us today.
Lawrence: Thanks for having me, Greg.
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