This is a lightly edited transcript of the September 2 edition of Right Now With Perry Bacon.
Perry Bacon: This is Right Now on The New Republic. I’m Perry Bacon, I’m the host. I’m joined by Natasha Warikoo. She’s a professor of sociology at Tufts University. She wrote a great book a few years ago called The Diversity Bargain, and now that we’re so focused these days on issues of diversity and inclusion and so on, I wanted to talk to her about kind of where we are.
She’s done a lot of work on higher education and diversity, and I feel like that’s a great place to kind of start from. But I want to talk about diversity, inclusion, and all the kinds of ways those issues are being affected by Donald Trump. So Natasha, thanks for joining me.
Natasha Warikoo: Thanks for having me. It’s great to be here.
Bacon: So let me start with the book itself. So the book that you wrote, called The Diversity Bargain, which was written a few years back. And I’m going to tell people, I’ll confess some interest in here, because I went to a college called Yale that very few people went to, but is an elite school. And the book is about, I think it’s Harvard, Oxford, and Brown, and you interviewed both white students and students of color, and you talked about diversity in elite college campuses. But I think the issues of diversity there are relevant to the rest of the society. But talk about what the phrase diversity bargain means.
Warikoo: Sure. Yeah. So I did these interviews with students on the Harvard and Brown campuses, and then also in the UK at Oxford, thinking—I wanted to understand people who are at the most elite places, and how they think about issues of fairness, inclusion, knowing that these places are very exclusive and elite, and certain groups are underrepresented. And the diversity bargain is this, that I found that white students in the United States really did support provisions for equity, particularly affirmative action, which was legal at the time. And they did it, but there was a bargain involved, right?
So they said they supported the inclusion and attention to race in admissions, so that there could be more Black students, Latinx students, Native American students on campus, because they saw it as a benefit to them. They understood that diversity had shaped their worldviews, that they were exposed to different perspectives, that their world was opened up through interacting with people who had very different lived experiences to their own.
But this meant a few things, that they expected underrepresented minority students to integrate at all times. So if they saw a table of Black students sitting together, then they thought that they were not upholding the diversity bargain. Of course, they didn’t notice all the tables of white students on the other side of the cafeteria, but that was OK. They didn’t want it to, quote-unquote, “go too far,” right? That there was this idea of reverse discrimination kind of lurking in the back of their heads.
And so even if they’d gotten—there was one student who said, memorable quote, where they said, “If I hadn’t gotten into Harvard, I would’ve felt that I had experienced racial discrimination if a Black student at my school had gotten in and I didn’t.” And so that script is already in the back of their minds, even though they had won. And so you imagine that student going on to apply to graduate school, apply for a job—the second that they don’t win, affirmative action is an easy thing to blame.
So there were these kinds of expectations that were rolled into the support for affirmative action, in part, and I argue, because there was less attention to kind of racial justice, and that the origins of affirmative action were related to racial equity for underrepresented minorities, frankly, African Americans, in the very beginning. And so that was underplayed in this discourse.
Bacon: So the book resonated with me. I read it, I think—when was the book published, Diversity Bargain?
Warikoo: It was 2016.
Bacon: 2016. So it resonated with me, in part—I think I read it in 2018—in part because, while it was about universities, I felt like, having worked in elite media, having attended an elite college, having worked in think tanks and other things, like, this was not just about universities. This idea that the African Americans particularly in these places needed to deliver some kind of benefit, and to be grateful to be there, and that kind of thing, was not just a college campus thing, but was also reflected in other things I had experienced.
And the reason I thought about the book more recently was, in 2020, I felt, oh, now we’re seeing a movement not just for diversity, but for real racial justice, and I wonder what this looks like. Natasha was hinting that when the demand is not just for Black people or minorities get in the room, but minorities get to shape things, and there’s a call for justice, then the white college students get mad.
I wonder if the rest of our society will feel similar to that, and I wonder if 2020 and the aftergrowth of that—you’ve seen some of the sort of, diversity is OK, but really challenging the structure of America is not OK.
Warikoo: Yeah, it’s been fascinating to watch this unfold. And so, 2020, for many people who care about racial justice and equity, was really an inspiring moment where we thought, “OK, this is what I was calling for,” right? I was calling for greater attention to racial justice, to equity. Systemic racism became, like, a household, an everyday phrase, that left the academy and went into corporate America.
And so it was this moment, and I think it was a hopeful moment, but yeah, unfortunately it didn’t last. I think we’re seeing the kind of backlash towards that movement. It happened pretty swiftly. By September, President Trump is issuing this executive order banning DEI, and so the backlash has been very forceful, and effective, I would add as well.
Bacon: And let’s—I want to talk about the backlash in a couple different ways. The first was, you saw all these, like, red states, I’ll say, right after 2021, passing all these sort of bans on books and ideas about race. You can’t study sociology in this way, or Black studies in this way. So you saw that pretty much 2020, 2021, 2022, that was in red states, that was happening.
So that was maybe not surprising, but that was a sign early on that there was going to be resistance to really studying systemic racism and thinking about it this way, right? That was early on, even when Biden’s president, this very, very strong resistance to academic work around this from the very beginning.
Warikoo: Yeah, absolutely. There’s a kind of back and forth, I think, between the local and the federal, right? So President Trump issues this executive order in September 2020. Biden takes office, rescinds that order, but states and local areas take it up, right? So you have Governor DeSantis in Florida using very similar language. They take on this phrase critical race theory, right?
Very few schools in this country have ever used that phrase, critical race theory, which is a very specific academic term, but they latched onto this, I think, related to this phrase systemic racism, without totally understanding what it was. But having these bans, right? Bans on the teaching of critical race theory, through the state legislatures. Local school boards really got on board with wanting to ban books and, quote-unquote, “parent rights.” Moms for Liberty, that came out of Florida, really helped local school districts elect people who are going to be on board with this project.
Again, you see this legislation and these movements in local areas with very similar language, because it’s a kind of systematic movement supported by organizations like Heritage Foundation. And so this is a very organized effort to attack any kind of policy related to diversity, justice, race, and to build a kind of narrative about this kind of reverse racism, right? To build this false narrative that somehow people of color, trans people, LGBTQ people are getting ahead, right?
And I found it really interesting that the Trump administration started using the language of meritocracy, right? So this idea that we’re going to restore merit by ending attention to inequality when we make selection decisions. And so there is this concerted effort that kind of then, when they’re out of office and Biden’s in office, it flows to the states. The states are enacting these bans, local school boards, and then it goes back to the federal when Trump gets back in office, right? And his administration takes on this again. And again, with alignment around language. It moves between K-12 education and higher education as well. So you see, it’s a very kind of systematic, and very effective in many ways, movement.
Bacon: And in corporate America, something happens too, where, like, 2014 to 2023, I’ll call this period, where a lot of companies feel like they have to—they put out diversity guidelines. We’re going to hire more women, we’re going to hire more people of color. We’re going to have more trainings. We’re going to have more implicit bias training. Some of these things are evidence-based. Some of them, candidly, are not particularly useful.
And then you see Facebook and other companies start rolling that back in early 2025. Sometimes it feels like in response to the federal government and Trump, sometimes it feels because they wanted to. I can’t quite tell. So what’s the corporate America story, in your view?
Warikoo: Yeah. I don’t know what’s going in their heads, but I can tell you what I see. There’s this great book that came out around the time that my book came out, called The Enigma of Diversity by Ellen Berrey, who’s another sociologist, where she compares the language around diversity in higher education, but also in the corporate world and in real estate as well, and this idea that diversity is being sold as a commodity in these different spheres, right?
So the corporate world, it’s, yeah, you need diversity because you’re going to make more money, because you can sell those—I forgot what they’re called—those, the Newports, in Black communities, or whatever. And corporate America, I think in 2020, a lot of these organizations put out statements, and I think genuine statements. I do think that there was a real reckoning. In some places it was strategic, but it was also, I think, heartfelt by a lot of people, where they understood, I think particularly white corporate America understood, things about the experiences, again, particularly of African Americans, and racial exclusion, in ways that they didn’t before. Ways that I think African Americans and other people of color always understood, because that was their lived experience. But I think this was a shift.
And I do think that there has been this, again, this shift back, in part because of fear, right? Fear of the Trump administration. Maybe lack of being totally on board, or worry about the bottom line, or that having been maybe more performative. I think all of those things can happen at once, right? But, when push comes to shove, we’re not going to put ourselves on the line, and I think that’s what we have seen.
And some are willing to take more risks than others. But for the most part, there’s a sort of pulling back, the way that we’re seeing in higher education as well. And I think that’s related to the federal government. But I think what you’re hinting at is also true, that maybe we don’t totally want to be full on. What are we willing to give up, right? And I think that’s where, when you’re asked to give up something, like, you’re asked to give up your security, you’re asked to put yourself at risk, that’s when we see the choices that are being made, and different organizations are going to make different choices.
Bacon: The higher education story feels to me like a couple different things. Which is, one, you had the red states opposed to all kinds of things because they’re very conservative. You have this Supreme Court decision about affirmative action, which says you can’t consider race in a variety of ways in admissions, particularly in higher education. So you have the Supreme Court acting.
I think you mentioned, we were emailing, you mentioned the Gaza protests and the reaction to them, and the sense that the campuses themselves were too left, which was felt by some people on campus who are Democrats. And so that created some culture, some shift. And then Trump coming in with this sort of really—colleges are too woke, I want to move colleges to the right. So the higher education context has been probably the place where this sort of move to the right on DEI has been felt the most, right? And it’s been the most aggressive place for it.
Warikoo: Yeah. I think there’s this sort of convergence, right? And to me, that was a moment, right? When—again, people have different perspectives in different universities, even within universities. But there was a—after those Gaza protests is where you see a lack of alignment, right? When Black Lives Matter happened, not all Americans were on board with down with systemic racism.
But in universities, for the most part, there was a lot of alignment, right? Universities were putting out statements. There was a kind of reckoning. There were meetings. There were statements. There were commitments to diversifying the faculty, to more resources for financial aid. All of this was happening. But I think in 2023, there was a lot more disagreement. More disagreement, around, on these liberal campuses than usual.
And so this created this kind of moment where I think the right saw an opening and swooped in. So you see this shift where, up to that point, a lot of the focus of the anti-DEI work on the right was in K-12 education, right? Book bans, right? Anti-DEI teaching, all those critical race theory, all that legislation was K-12 schools. 90 percent of those bans were at the K-12 level. But then there’s this shift, like, Oh, wait. OK, here’s an opening for us in higher education. And then they shift to higher ed, right? And then we see the systematic attacks in the second Trump administration in higher education. And of course, bolstered by the 2023 US Supreme Court decision, right?
So the 2023 US Supreme Court decision ends affirmative action in college admissions, where you can no longer consider race in admissions. And then you see the Trump administration uses that decision, which is really a narrow decision about college admissions, to say, Oh, now you can’t have any kind of DEI programming. You can’t have a student center. You can’t have scholarships.
And of course, that is not settled law, but they use that in that Dear Colleague letter that came out in February 2025, to say, Stop everything. And if you don’t, we’re going to withhold federal funding. Now, again, there’s a lot of throwing things at the wall and seeing what will stick in the Trump administration, but it creates, like, fear. And universities are like, “Wait, we don’t want to get sued. We don’t want to be the ones in a lawsuit.” So that starts, and then the Gaza war really creates a wide opening to say, OK, the withholding of federal grants, and it just continues on and on over the last year and a half.
Bacon: So I’m not on a college campus at all most days, but you are. You’re in Boston, you’re in, in some ways, the center of university life in America. So you’re at Tufts, and you’re also around other colleges. So what’s it like now? Do people feel nervous to say diversity or inclusion on campus? Do people feel nervous about those words? Do minority students feel under threat? What’s it like to be on a college campus in this sort of administration, in this time of diversity backlash? And you’re a person of color yourself, obviously.
Warikoo: Yeah. I’m in a very liberal state. I’m on a liberal campus, so I’ll start with that caveat. I think the biggest things that we worry about are our international—
Bacon: Private college, it’s worth noting. We’re a private college too, it’s worth noting. So anyway, yeah, Tufts is private.
Warikoo: Yes. Oh, sorry. Yes, that’s what I mean. That’s really important. It’s a private college. But we have a lot of federal grants, and so we are beholden to the federal government. I think we worry a lot about our international students, increasingly draconian policies related to, like, first getting a visa, and then the four-year new policy for graduation. Are they going to be targeted? We had our student, was kidnapped by ICE, right? She thought she was being kidnapped off the street. She didn’t even know what was happening. And so I think we worry a lot about that.
I think for the students, there is this sense—there is this sense of the ground is shifting under their feet, right? So there’s a curiosity, I think increasingly there’s a tension too, I think they realize that they have a hard time talking across difference. But I’ll say, with a big but, I don’t think this is related to specifically things that are happening on campus. I think this is a society-wide thing. I think our society is increasingly polarized. Social media has a lot to do with that. We are increasingly segregated, not only by race, like we always were, and class, but also by political identity. And I think there’s this sense of, like, anything you say can be posted and go viral.
And so I think a lot of those things are happening. I think that’s now getting, again, taken up and attributed to, it’s the supposedly ideological bent of the faculty. I think that’s totally wrong. So I think there is that, but I think it’s not a result of these political things. I think it’s a result of broader social trends. And so, I think, on a day-to-day level, students are just, like, doing their thing.
I think what’s on our minds as faculty is, what I see as concerning, right? I think faculty across the country, even in blue states, are wondering, like, are we going to be increasingly scrutinized? Are we going to be able to teach the way we think we should be teaching? Where is my syllabus going? And who is using, who is looking at these materials? Is a student going to record my class?
People are now putting on statements like, You can’t record in your class, in my classroom. I understand that, and, a few years ago, it never would’ve occurred to me to have a statement like that on my syllabus. So I think these are the kinds of things that are happening right now. And I think our students are also just worried about, am I going to get a job after I graduate, with all of this debt, or with this degree? And I think those are the big concerns, I think.
Bacon: What does this period mean for you, as a person who works in sociology, a field that the right seems to be very focused on demeaning, who works in higher education, who works in race, and who wants to make our society more equitable, on racial grounds, and particularly in higher education? What does it mean for you? It feels like a lot of the things you’re working on are under threat right now. Or a lot that you spend your career on are under threat right now. How does that affect the way you think about your work?
Warikoo: Yeah. In some ways it makes it feel more important than ever, right? So Florida, two years ago, and now it’s been formalized, first started saying, You know what, you can’t take sociology for your distribution requirements, and sociology can no longer be part of gen ed requirements. And part of me was like, Oh, they understand the value of sociology, right? What do we do as sociologists? We look at society. We look at data on society. We reveal the things that are hard to see, right?
That there are racial disparities or class disparities, that we don’t live in a true meritocracy, and we have data to—we look at data and say, “Look, this is what our society’s actually”—and people who don’t want to understand those things are trying to ban sociology. So I feel, on the one hand, that the work that I feel like I’m doing is more important than ever. Unfortunately, right? I wish my research were out of date and no longer relevant, but I think it’s really important.
I’m actually going back to those young—they’re not young anymore—the people I interviewed for The Diversity Bargain. They’re now in their 30s, and I’ve been re-interviewing them to say, “Hey, how’s it turned out? And do you still believe in meritocracy? Do you think that this is a fair system?” And you know what? A lot of them are saying, like, no, it’s not a meritocracy. Like, hiring, it’s not a meritocracy. I got my job because I knew somebody. And the way I hire, or the way my firm hires, I try to give, like, a sample activity, or I’ve suggested we take the names of universities.
But at the end of the day, often it’s like someone recommends someone who I knew from this thing, and so they see that. And if the elites are seeing this—so I feel like, my job is to reveal what is happening in society that we don’t get—that I have the luxury of being able to take time, chat to people, analyze it, look for trends, and so I think that’s really important.
The other thing that I feel really passionate about right now is just defending higher education, right? This attack on higher education, to me—any authoritarian regime attacks the institutions of knowledge, which is what we’re seeing, and it’s so disturbing. But how do we have a just as organized a response, to showing the value of what happens in higher education? Higher education is—I’m not saying it’s perfect. We’re not perfect. We got a lot of work to do. But a lot of good things happen in higher education.
You think about our community colleges, which are, like, these engines of social mobility for so many Americans. Our big state schools that are educating so many people with decreasing funding. And so I think a lot of good happens in higher education, and what I hope we can do is change the narrative around, why is diversity good? What does it do for us? What is it doing as a—who we are as a—how is it helping us be who we want to be as an American society? And that’s what I’m trying to do right now, is, like, how do we change this narrative and have just as organized a response to the way that this organized attack has been happening over the last few years.
Bacon: Let me give one suggestion that no one in academia has listened to so far, but I will try it again. I’m in a Black family. We have Thanksgiving dinner. I go to a Black church sometimes. Everyone does not agree on everything. We have disagreements about lots of things.
Warikoo: Yes.
Bacon: None of us voted for Donald Trump, though, so you might want to stop conceding that you all don’t have any thought diversity because people voted for Democrats. This concession, when there are Republican voters in the room, that people all think the same, is not actually true. And if you expand out to the rest of society, I don’t think everyone in the Black church all is of, like—we have fierce debates about private schools and charter schools and public schools, but no, we do not debate if Donald Trump is a good president or not.
So I think this idea—I’m disappointed the president of Yale and people who I would like to—we need to, forget about the authoritarians for a second, the people on our side need to defend the idea. I don’t think professors are indoctrinating students, and I don’t see that, and I don’t know a lot of professors that do so.
It’d be nice if the David Brookses and the president of Yale and people who are not Trumpists would actually defend higher ed first. That’d be helpful. Like the Yale report—there are a lot of reports that, I don’t agree with a lot of what they said in there, and you might want to start there before we worry about JD Vance.
Warikoo: 100 percent. I am in total agreement with you. It is really upsetting to me, and worrisome, that we’re conceding this language. And yes, 100, we have a lot of—that’s what scholars do. We debate ideas. We look at data—
Bacon: Like, diversity is not—political diversity, viewpoint diversity, is not Republican versus Democrat. You and I differ on issues, I’m sure, but we might vote for the same person, is my guess. I’m not going to ask you that, being—
Warikoo: Yes, 100 percent. And this whole viewpoint diversity stuff, to me, is so ironic, because when I look at what they’re saying and talking about, it’s like borrowing the language of racial diversity, right? And, in the 1980s, we spent so much time researching the benefits of racial diversity, how to talk across difference. There are all these models. There are all these things that we know, right? How to build, like, intergroup dialogue in the classroom. We know how to do this, and so to suddenly say, “No,” like, that’s what we were doing.
But I think the viewpoint diversity thing is also disingenuous, because it starts with an end point, right? You are diverse because you think this thing. You support President Trump, or you support whoever it is—it doesn’t have to be President Trump—you are anti-abortion, or whatever. But the diversity stuff said, “No, you might think something,” but diversity challenges you to consider a different way, and then whatever you conclude, right? But this viewpoint diversity thing is, “Here’s my stake in the ground. You need to listen to this.” And I think that’s so deeply problematic.
So I couldn’t agree with you more. And this idea that we are—those reports, I just think that they concede this idea that we are somehow indoctrinating our students. When you look at the data, there’s been studies of, sure, there are probably more registered Democrats in an anthropology department or a sociology department. But that has nothing to do with—first of all, that has more to do with who ends up in these fields, who ends up in higher education—there’s cultural things.
But then also, I think particularly in a field like sociology, when you’re looking at the data, and you’re drawing conclusions based on that, that might lead you to a broad range of politics that are over here. Like you said, there’s a lot of differences over here, but less over here. And so I think—and even if you have that conclusion, our job is not to bring that into the classroom.
Of course, bias comes in, and if you ask my students to guess my politics, they might, broadly speaking, be able to guess who I voted for president in 2024. But beyond that, my job is not to teach them what I think. It’s to teach them to think for themselves, and look at evidence, and look at different perspectives on an issue. And that’s what most of us do. And so I couldn’t agree with you more, and I find that whole discussion really troubling myself.
Bacon: So the reason I thought about you was with this whole Woke 1.0 discussion, because we’re going to finish there. Which is that I’m concerned that—I know there’s been defenses of what she said, but I was concerned that the thing that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a leading sort of progressive figure in America, said was Woke 1.0 was crazy. I don’t quite know what Woke 1.0 is.
I don’t love that phrasing in the first place. But when I think about 2020, I think a lot about a lot of ideas that needed to be stated, that were, like, they were truths that were presented more directly than before, that the police are often not a source of safety but often a source of inequality and violence, that we have systemic racism, that we have long-standing biases of all kinds that affect our culture. So, for me, that was the period of truth, and the rest of America often is crazy. And so I’m concerned to hear that.
So I’m wondering what to do about that, in a certain way. So, I get the fact that there was a political backlash to that. So if you’re running for office, I can see—like, you, Natasha, are not wrong. If you’re planning to run for office in Wisconsin, do not say the things you said. I agree. But what do the rest of us do who are not running? That’s what I want to talk to you about, is, like, how do we defend—if you’re not running for office, how do we defend the ideas of 2020? Because I think that’s important. I think those ideas were not wrong, and I think we need to stop conceding them.
And if Senator Sanders and Zohran and AOC and people whose names are on the ballot have to concede ideas that they know are true, I’ll talk to them about that in private, and why they should find different ways to disown things they know are true. But let’s focus on the rest, for the rest of us, let’s talk about how we defend things that are known. And so how do you talk about DEI to people who are skeptical of it? I don’t love that phrase in the first place, and I never did. But how do we talk about the values of diversity and equity, and fighting systemic problems in the country? It’s an easy question.
Warikoo: Yeah. Look, I think this idea that we want American society to be broadly inclusive, that people of all racial identities, of all backgrounds, should feel that they can be part of the American dream, and that we want to take steps in schools, in higher education, to make that happen—I have a hard time believing that most Americans will not be on board with that. And that’s fundamentally what the Diversity Project has tried to do, right?
Make our universities more accessible to groups that have been historically excluded, and then once they arrive on campus, make it so that they can be successful. What supports do we need to put in place so that students who traditionally haven’t gone to these universities, whose parents didn’t go to this kind of university, make sure that they can be successful? Just making that very clear, I think, is easy, and making it so that everyone feels like it’s possible for them, right?
And again, I think we have to counter this narrative, right? I think what the right has been really successful at doing is creating this narrative that, a lot of people are hurting in American society right now, of all races, right? And so, to say, You know why you’re hurting? It’s because of those people. It’s because of the trans people. It’s because of African Americans. It’s because of immigrants. And they’ve been, like, remarkably successful at that. And I think we have to shift that narrative, and to say that, No, you know what it is? It’s housing policy. We need to figure out housing. It’s economic policy. It’s—
The policies on race are not—it’s not zero sum, right? It’s not about this group versus this. I think about when I was talking a lot about affirmative action, and people would say it should be class-based, not—and it’s, yeah, maybe. We should have a lot more financial aid. That’s true. And we also need race-based affirmative action, because we have, for all of these other reasons—these are two—so these should not be mutually exclusive.
And so I think just laying that out to ordinary Americans in a way that’s clear and consistent and not defensive, I think, is going to go a long way. I think people who are critical of the way that we’re going need to build—when I look at that Project 2025, the foundations and how systematic and organized that movement has been, like, can we build that? And that’s what I want to be a part of.
Bacon: And on the higher ed—
Warikoo: I want to build that in the other direction, I should say. Sorry, just to be fair.
Bacon: On the higher ed side, I think that sounds like affordable college for as many people as possible, right? That—whether it’s free or debt-free or whatever, you should not leave college with $100,000 in debt, and you should be able to get a job without going into debt. I think that’s the sort of most fundamental part. If you want to go to college, everyone should go to college if they want to. And then on the diversity side, it’s, like, we want to have a society where your race or gender or sexual orientation does not bar you from, does not determine your livelihood, right? That’s what we’re going to get to.
Warikoo: Yeah, 100 percent. Who would disagree with that, right?
Bacon: But yes, because as you were talking, I was thinking of that book, The Sum of Us. Did you read that book by Heather McGhee that was published in 2021? It talked about this idea of, the right uses these issues to wedge different groups, so the key is to create a collective all.
Warikoo: Yeah, people have been talking about that in different ways for many years. And there’s this balance between—we’re not saying that we have to be colorblind. I don’t think being colorblind would get us there. But we do have to show how these different groups have similar interests, and that we have to be aligned and build these coalitions across lines of difference, in ways, and think about issues that we are all facing. I think there is a balance there. I think we still have to recognize there are issues specific to race, to sexuality or whatever, and that there is a common interest, economic interest, economic issues as well.
Bacon: Natasha, tell people where they can find some of your work and your thoughts. Are you doing a Substack? Are you doing anything like that there?
Warikoo: You can go to my website. Oh—I signed up for Substack. I need to—
Bacon: Everyone gets an evening newsletter, I promise.
Warikoo: But don’t go to my Substack. Go to my website, natashawarikoo.com. That has a lot of my work, and you can look at my recent books, Race at the Top and Is Affirmative Action Fair?
Bacon: Good. This was a great conversation, and thanks for joining me. Great to see you. Take care.
Warikoo: Thanks so much for having me.
Bacon: Bye-bye.
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