Perry Bacon: So I want to start by framing this in maybe a positive way. We’re almost three weeks into this war with Iran. What have we achieved? Any successes? Is there anything you would say is successful here?
I think we’ve done the opposite. Clearly we’ve managed to raise the price of oil. Iran has closed the Strait of Hormuz and threatened shipping through the strait, which raises the price of oil even more. But again, if you ask me what we’ve achieved: the problem is that the Trump administration has not really articulated any clear goals here, other than this nonsensical claim that we’re trying to prevent an Iranian nuclear weapon.
Bacon: Even three weeks ago it wasn’t totally clear from the Trump administration why we were doing this at this time. But let me ask: there’s been some reporting that Israel maybe pushed us into it in a certain way. From the Israeli perspective, they may have had actually clear goals—talk about their goals for this war.
Iran was rebuilding its missile capacity much quicker than expected, and that was very concerning, because obviously these missiles are a retaliatory measure across the region—but also particularly in Israel, where they did enormous damage to Israeli military sites and in Israeli cities, far more than was reported, given the very strict censorship of the news in Israel. So I don’t think Americans quite understood how damaging these missiles were.
Unfortunately, Israel’s military doctrine—backed by the Trump administration, and originally backed by the Biden administration—is that Israel desires and believes it is now entitled to complete freedom of action across the region. Anything that might constrain Israel’s ability to strike wherever, whenever, and for whatever reason is now seen as an unacceptable and imminent threat. And I just want to say: that is an absolutely insane policy. It’s absolutely insane that the Biden administration supported it—though we should acknowledge that the Biden administration did restrain Israel from attacking Iran, and did restrain it from doing a few things the Trump administration has allowed. Even though the Biden administration obviously gave Israel essentially a free hand to obliterate Gaza and commit a genocide there, which is still ongoing. And the Trump administration has pretty much backed Israel in doing whatever it wants.
Duss: I think clearly the Israelis want regime change. It’s unclear what Trump wants. They’ve said so many different things, and it is in character for Trump to just throw out a bunch of different goals and objectives to see what sticks. A few weeks ago he was literally cold-calling journalists to workshop different goals like he’s in some kind of comedy improv group. Because let’s remember, Trump is first and foremost an entertainer. But this also means that no matter what happens, he can always point to something and say: this is what I wanted to happen. Because, of course, Donald Trump can never fail.
Bacon: Talk about Iran’s perspective here. I’ll admit I’m not deeply versed in foreign policy, but I gather that Iranian leaders are being killed as they go about their daily lives. So how do you keep a regime going if everyone is under threat of assassination at any given moment?
Bacon: We’re going to be close to three weeks in. Do you have a sense of how long this will last? Does anybody?
Bacon: So this time, oil prices though, which you’re saying—
Bacon: Do you he will?
Although I would add—and as we saw yesterday, or was it the day before, time has no meaning anymore—the Iranian official Ali Larijani: again, a brutal Iranian leader, but one who was understood to have real authority with the security services, someone who could have overseen some kind of third-party negotiation to bring an end to this war. Now killed by Israel. I haven’t seen firm evidence on this yet, but it does make sense to me that he would have been targeted precisely because he could have negotiated an off-ramp—and that is something that Netanyahu and Israel clearly do not want.
Duss: Yeah. I think—Joe Kent resigned, and his letter is pretty widely read right now. I think some of what’s in that letter is right, some of it’s wrong. I think it’s clearly the case that this war would not have happened without the urging of Netanyahu
It’s not necessarily that Israel is just pushing for its own interest—these people do share a vision. They believe U.S. interests are involved here too. Now, I think that’s absolutely wrong, catastrophically wrong. But while it’s important to acknowledge that yes, Netanyahu played a major role, putting all the blame on Israel really lets U.S. policymakers and U.S. analysts off the hook. We need to understand that this is very much a Washington problem, not just an Israel problem. This is a problem of a very well-organized and well-funded policy machinery.
Bacon: Talk about Britain, France, and the international community, because right when we started the war, a lot of these foreign leaders said they supported it, or at least didn’t oppose it. And now it seems like their populations have caught up. What’s your sense of where the world is on this?
Bacon: Is the Venezuela parallel relevant here? I guess two questions. Did the U.S. have someone they thought would take over after Maduro was killed who was favorable to us? And two, did Trump think this would go well because of what happened in Venezuela, which was pretty quick and relatively bloodless?
And you look at some of the comments he’s made in various news conferences: he said, oh, we didn’t know they were going to close the strait—man, that’s really surprising. The Pentagon has been war-gaming this for decades. Yes, we absolutely knew they were going to do this. Iran has said they were going to do this. There is absolutely no excuse not to know this. And as we already know, Trump doesn’t do the reading. So that’s how we got here.
Duss: I don’t know that it makes it distinct from war—this happens in war. That’s why we should avoid war unless there is absolutely no other option. That’s certainly not the case here. But I do think the fact that this happened literally on the first day, within the first hours of this war, has characterized it from the very beginning. This is an unnecessary war, it’s an illegal war, and it reveals exactly why we avoid war. You can come up with all the justifications—was it an error, was it not—and we’ve certainly spent the past two-plus years watching the Israeli military essentially murder children by the thousands in Gaza. So it’s unfortunately not surprising. Nor is the fact that no one is really being held accountable. And again, this is not a problem that began with this administration. This is a problem of our foreign policy establishment generally—a bipartisan problem, a problem of elite impunity, a problem of zero accountability.
Duss: I don’t know. It seems like Trump has his eye on Cuba now. I can imagine him being frustrated with Iran and thinking: I need another win to balance out Iran. Unfortunately, that seems to be how he thinks. Now, if he becomes convinced that Cuba will not be as easy as he imagines, I don’t know. But from the way he’s talking, he really does seem intent on making Cuba next.
I assume you think the Biden administration should have worked harder to restart the Iran nuclear deal, or something like that?
It was a horrible decision. Eventually they got around to trying to negotiate with the Iranians to get back into the deal, but by that time the administration in Iran had been replaced by a much harder-line one that realized it just could not trust the United States—either Trump or Biden. I think Biden squandered a hugely important opportunity early in his presidency to simply rejoin the deal. But he chose to listen to some of the hawks in the party—people like Bob Menendez, people like Chris Coons—who offered him very bad advice: oh no, let’s take our time. And that is part of how we got here, because Joe Biden broke his promise.
Duss: God, yeah—for starters, let’s just say that. We need to declassify the information they had during the Gaza war. We need to know what they knew and when they knew it, because we already have reporting indicating that they understood what Israel was doing—they understood that international law and international humanitarian law were being violated, and they understood that U.S. law governing the provision of U.S. military support was therefore being violated. And listen: if they believe their actions in support of the Gaza war were defensible, they should have no problem standing by their decisions, letting all of this be made public, and letting the American people and the world see what they knew and what was guiding their decision-making. And I think the same is true for the Trump administration. We need to know what information they had that led to these decisions—not just in Iran but in Venezuela.
Bacon: You used the term “genocide” earlier to describe what happened in Gaza. I mention this because we’re now in the early rounds of the presidential primary. Gavin Newsom has written a book and is going around talking about it, and so is Josh Shapiro. Newsom used the term “apartheid” to describe what’s happening in Israel—and I think he backtracked, but not really.
Bacon: I can understand that. And Shapiro said we shouldn’t use that word but didn’t really disagree with it. Just to zero in: do you think using the words “genocide” and “apartheid” is necessary for people running for president as Democrats? Is it important to use those words to describe what’s happening in Israel?
Now, do candidates need to say this? It goes back to what I said: I think we’re in a moment where people have lost faith in our politics because our leaders just don’t tell us the truth. I want leaders to tell the truth. They should reflect reality as it is. This is something that Shapiro interestingly said—we should talk about reality as it is—and I was like: I agree.
Bacon: You advise Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She went to Munich—I think that was last month now, time is hard to keep track of—and you worked with her a bit on her remarks. I wanted to ask about two things. The first is this idea that she answered some questions and—I guess a lot of the coverage suggested she seemed not up to it, as I would describe it. How do you respond to that? I didn’t feel that way myself, but some of the coverage was that she wasn’t up to it—she didn’t answer a question about Taiwan precisely. How did you view that? People were treating it as a test for her, and there were questions of whether she, quote, passed it.
Bacon: The other thing I want to ask about is that she made the argument that authoritarianism is growing because of income inequality.
Duss: I think there are multiple reasons, but on the issue of inequality specifically: this is an analysis that goes back to John Maynard Keynes, and even further. Keynes, in one of his first famous books—The Economic Consequences of the Peace, about the end of World War I and the massive reparations imposed on Germany—warned that this massive inflation and inequality would leave people unable to survive, and would power very dark forces in these societies. It would power authoritarianism and fascism. And he was absolutely correct. So I think that is the analysis she’s getting at, and I think it still holds.
Bacon: I think that’s a good place to end. Matt, good to see you. Thanks for joining me.
Duss: Thanks.
Hence then, the article about transcript trump has no idea how to end the war against iran was published today ( ) and is available on The New Republic ( Middle East ) The editorial team at PressBee has edited and verified it, and it may have been modified, fully republished, or quoted. You can read and follow the updates of this news or article from its original source.
Read More Details
Finally We wish PressBee provided you with enough information of ( Transcript: Trump Has No Idea How To End the War Against Iran )
Also on site :