There are many contentious issues currently being discussed on the UNC campus. But perhaps none are more contentious than the state of the Dean Smith Center and its future. Decision-makers at UNC have reportedly been pushing for a new basketball arena on a parcel of land known as Carolina North, located on the former Horace Williams Airport off of Martin Luther King, Jr. Boulevard.
Fans and former players have voiced their support for staying at the Smith Center, using the rallying cry “Renovate, Don’t Relocate.” Supporters of this cause include former head coach Roy Williams and program legend Tyler Hansbrough.
Fronting this effort is Rusty Carter, a UNC alumnus who graduated in 1971 and a former university trustee. Carter joined 97.9 The Hill’s Aaron Keck to discuss the Smith Center and his group’s push to stay on south campus. You can read that conversation, which has been lightly edited for clarity, below, or you can listen by clicking here.
Keck: What motivated you to lead this effort? It’s a lot of work, so it’s got to be near and dear to your heart.
Carter: The motivation, I think, has many parts as it came out early in the discussion. I mean, the whole legacy…the tradition of Carolina men’s basketball is something that binds this university together. Some people say it’s our front porch, and I think there’s little debate that thousands of alums across the globe actually stay attached to this place they love so much through the basketball program. I mean, it’s a real connection…it’s a love connection, it’s a loyalty connection. And I guess the shock of hearing in early December that there was an announcement coming only days away — that it was being located on north campus, and very few people were aware of the decision and it appeared to have little process — I guess that is what impacted a number of us to rally and say, “Whoa, whoa, let’s, let’s find out more about this. There’s something here that we don’t understand and we’d like to be involved.” And if 36 [thousand], or probably pushing 50,000 in a few weeks, people feel similarly, then it was probably the right reaction for this group to have.
Keck: What was the initial conversation? What were those first couple of days like of you and other people getting together and saying, “Hey, let’s organize this”?
Carter: A number of us had been approached by a messenger from the administration to tell us that this move was imminent and it was going to be announced. Telegraph, telephone, tell a Tar Heel… and it got out there pretty quickly that something was getting ready to happen that people knew very little about. The network [response] was pretty immediate with supporters of the basketball program, or just loyal Tar Heels, that we need to talk about this. And so the initial response was, “Hey, let’s contact the chancellor that we would like to slow the train down here and have a little discussion because we don’t understand the process that got us here.”
Rusty Carter (right) with 97.9 The Hill’s Aaron Keck. (Photo by the Chapel Hill Media Group.)
Keck: In terms of the response, in terms of the petition and the number of signatures and we’re in the tens of thousands, are you surprised at all by how big it got?
Carter: I’m really not, and I think you’ll see it continue to grow. The initial surge certainly came from all areas of Tar Heel support, including the students. Students have been very outspoken. I think you will see it continue to take on momentum. We just want an open airing of the situation. And I am pleased to say I think it’s moving in that direction. I think there’s little doubt that this outcry, if that’s what you want to call it, or at least this raising awareness of what was happening, has changed the dynamics. The administration is rightfully taking a step back and they’ve acknowledged that they dropped the ball on the process. And I commend them for stepping back and engaging the broader community, looking deeper, developing some apples-to-apples comparisons so that a real sound judgment can be made about whether moving the arena is a reasonable thing to do or not.
Keck: Renovatesmithcenter.org is the website for the petition to keep the UNC basketball team where it is. Would you be fine with building a new building next door?
Carter: I think our main focus has been [keeping an arena] on-campus. That was Dean Smith’s wish. That’s Roy Williams’ wish. But there’s certainly a subtitle under here that says we would prefer a renovation. And there are lots of reasons why. Some of them are pure economics, the stewardship of university and state resources. I mean, if you take just some of the numbers that are out there, there’s a sense that the $800 million is probably low by the time that would be built and executed.
Keck: That’s to build a new building, right?
Carter: The new building at north campus. And most people are thinking it’s probably going to be over $1 billion. The high numbers on the renovation are somewhere around $350 million to $400 million. Well, there’s a lot of distance between $400 million and $1 billion. I wasn’t great in math, but it seems like it was $600 million. The stewardship of those resources in a time when resources for the university are tight needs to be a part of this calculation. How do we best spend the resources of the state and the university?
Keck: One of the big trade-offs with renovating the current building is then the team has to play somewhere else for a year or two years, however long it takes. That’s going to be a tough transition. Is that a trade-off you’re willing to accept?
Carter: If it was necessary. But there have been some absolute statements out there that we would have to play somewhere else for two or three years…that has yet to be determined. A number of schools — Tennessee being one, SMU being one, even the Spectrum Center in Charlotte that houses an NBA team that plays almost 50 games a year — did a $250 million renovation and didn’t miss a game. The ability to renovate in phases is yet to be fully determined. But a number of people that are knowledgeable about the Smith Center believe there’s a reasonable chance that you can do it in phases and still play in the Smith Center. Another piece of this is… if we played a couple games in Charlotte and a couple games in Greensboro and a couple games in Atlanta and a couple games in Madison Square Garden, the great fanbase of Tar Heels would be delighted. It could be a really wonderful thing. I know we’d lose a little home court advantage, but there are also advantages in engaging with our alumni base across the country.
Keck: What has the conversation been like between you and UNC officials, and how has that changed between December and today?
Carter: There’s been an openness of dialogue. A number of people in our committee have met with the chancellor and with the administration. We’ve had a lot of back and forth. Of course, we’ve posted a lot of data that is counter to some of their data and… hey, that’s called a process and we’re happy with that. But we have been very civil and very engaged in trying to take next steps, and we believe those next steps became baby steps, which has been helpful to the process. We’ll see where we go from here.
Keck: I want to unpack a couple of the arguments that are being made in favor of keeping the team in the Smith Center. One of them is the appeal to the importance of the tradition of Tar Heel basketball and how important that is on campus and to the larger Carolina community. Are you worried that the tradition goes away if the team moves to a different facility? Because we’ve already had one significant move in the 1980s from Carmichael [Auditorium] to the Smith Center. When you were going to school it was Carmichael, and then it moved and the tradition is as strong today as it ever was. Is there a concern that the tradition dies if the team moves again?
Carter: I think there’s absolutely a chance that the tradition would fade. It’s going to be difficult for students. I think it won’t engage the outside community as much as the Smith Center. There’ll be reason to stay home and watch it on a large screen TV. And I just think you’ll lose a lot of the affection that’s there with the history of the program. Jerseys in the rafters will be missing even if you hang them there. It will just be a different feel, a different engagement by our community. And I think over time we stand to lose the front porch. And the front porch is not something you want to take off the house. I think that’s a risk, I really do.
Former UNC trustee Rusty Carter, the organizer behind the “Renovate, Don’t Relocate” movement, describes the Smith Center as the “Front Porch” of the university. (Image via UNC-Chapel Hill/Jon Gardiner)
Keck: You’re going to have to answer this for me because this is before my time, but did people not make that argument in 1982 when they were talking about moving from Carmichael to the new building? Because I feel like that argument could have been made for any move.
Carter: I think it can be made, but keep in mind: on campus. We moved on campus. And the student voices still need to be heard here. And as long as you’re on campus, you’re not going to find the divisiveness and the concern for the loss of legacy and the loss of tradition that you’re going to find when you move it out to a civic center off an interstate somewhere. You’re just not going to find that level.
Keck: That’s one of the things that actually intrigues me about the idea of putting it on Carolina North. Because I think you’re right. I think the building has to be on campus, which means that putting it at Carolina North works only if UNC is able to make it so that Carolina North feels like an integral part of campus as opposed to just being a satellite, which is going to take a ton of work, but it’s a lot of work that UNC and specifically Chapel Hill already want to do. This is the kick-in-the-pants to turn the MLK corridor into the actual Franklin Street-y destination that it should be. Infill and density development and transportation and greenways and all of that. The only way to make the Carolina North building work would be to do all of that. And I can close my eyes and see that vision and it’s kind of a cool vision. It’s a ton of work, but it might be worth doing.
Carter: If you want to redefine the definition of “on-campus,” then maybe your argument holds a little bit of water here. But I was one of the first classes to stay and live in Morrison dorm [which was] built on South Campus. The university built four, five high-rise units out there. We all know the names and they’ve done some other stuff. At that point in time, the students were told and the community was told, “We’re going to build out South Campus in a way that when you walk from Polk Place to Hinton James dorm, you will never know the difference. It’s going to be all integrated into one campus.” Fifty-five years later, we’re still waiting for someplace that you can buy a hot dog on South Campus. I think that should be a discussion that comes into this renovation idea.
It’s certainly not a very mature discussion. But it’s the desert. We have 5,000 students on South Campus for the most part. They are the least wealthy or the least financially stable group on campus. They can’t move off campus and they’re not well served with the amenities that could be on south campus. So, there’s your discussion about how you connect campus. You don’t try to connect one that’s two miles out on [North Carolina Highway] 86 when you’ve got one that’s 200 yards [away]. That is a discussion that I would very much like to see the university engage in because it’s important. Those students need to be served. Your game day experience could be enhanced if that’s one of the motives. It’s not been on the table and I would like to see it on the table. I think it’s very important. Because I remember being in Morrison dorm 55 years ago.
Keck: If people want to get involved, obviously we’ve got the website, people can go and sign the petition if they haven’t. Beyond that, how else can people get involved?
Carter: Well, we’re encouraging anyone and everyone to sign the petition. This is a loud voice and it comes from lots of areas of our university family. That would be the first step, of course. And I’ve been pleased to see the student engagement. The students have worn t-shirts, they’ve passed out posters, they’ve been letting their voices be known. All of these things — podcasts, postings to our sites — are a good way to get involved. Let your voices be known. That’s the level of engagement we need. We need a high level of engagement and it needs to continue. But I do believe and I want to acknowledge that the university has heard the initial blast here. They understand that there’s a loud voice saying, “Whoa, slow down, [let’s do our] due diligence. Let’s have apples-to-apples and let’s see what’s the best decision.”
And I would add this: this committee and many of these voices are very much for the build out of Carolina North. We absolutely are. There’s a great opportunity for the university to have an academic research area. There’s talk about engineering schools, there’s talk about law school relocation. And the university has the opportunity, we believe, to have a world-class Carolina North academic research community with other amenities that can collaborate with Duke in the areas of medical research and science, collaborate with NC State in the establishment of an engineering school and having one of the grandest engineering schools in the country. We could almost have a mini-Research Triangle opportunity there that really comes from an academic standpoint and not an economic business standpoint. Putting an entertainment center in the middle of that, I’ll speak for myself, I think is illogical. I don’t see why the university would ever sacrifice that opportunity or squander that opportunity. It is right here. We have three major universities within rock’s throws of each other. And therein is where Carolina North, I think, stands its ground and is something really wonderful for this university.
Keck: When all is said and done, how confident are you that all of this effort is going to all ultimately lead to Carolina basketball, long term, being in a different place than it would have been if you hadn’t stepped up and said anything?
Carter: I think without the voices that have been raised from all areas of our community, the students, the alums, the players… I think bulldozers would be cranking up. Not literally, but I think the decision to move to Carolina North would’ve been announced. And I do believe that the efforts of many have turned that tide for the moment. I applaud the administration for taking a pause and reaching out to say, “We are hearing you and we are going to take another look. We dropped the ball on the process and we’re going to go back and pick that ball up and do some more study. And we’re going to look at the stewardship of the funds of the state and this university.”
I’ll say it one more time: [the men’s basketball program is] the tie that binds this university together and it holds thousands of loyal Tar Heels together in one family. And I think staying at the Smith Center will continue that legacy, which is a wonderful thing for Chapel Hill and for the university.
Featured image via Associated Press/Chris Seward
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‘This is a Loud Voice’: Former UNC Trustee Discusses Push to ‘Renovate, Don’t Relocate’ Dean Smith Center Chapelboro.com.
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