Just days after the release of her new novel “American Hagwon,” internationally best-selling author Min Jin Lee sat down with NBC Chicago’s Michelle Baik ahead of an event in Evanston on Friday night.
Her complete interview can be found below.
BAIK: You have an event in Evanston later tonight, which brings you to town. But are you familiar with Chicago? What do you know about it and the literature scene here?
LEE: No, I love Chicago. I’ve been here quite a lot, and the reason I like Chicago… There are a couple of things I really like about Chicago. I like the trains, so it makes me feel like it’s kind of a walking city as well and a train city. It’s not just sort of separated by cars. And the water. Beautiful, right?
Especially in Evanston, you can see the water. It’s so calming. And, of course, the food is very, very good.
BAIK: I love that you’re Korean American and also a New Yorker, so it makes us feel really good that you said that you love Chicago.
But the reason we’re talking today is, of course, your latest novel, which came out this week. It’s been nine years since the release of “Pachinko.”
People know you best from “Pachinko,” a National Book Award finalist and, of course, an international bestseller. It really is an honor to be speaking with you today and to be able to pick your brain after reading this myself for a month or so, because it’s hefty. She’s hefty, you know?
So I want to start there. What happened in the nine years since Pachinko was published? I know you’re very research-heavy.
So, how did you research? How did you spend those nine years? I’m assuming you started this right after the release.
LEE: Actually, I started before. Yes, it actually took about 10 years. It’s kind of embarrassing. It’s true.
BAIK: What happened during those 10 years, then?
LEE: Well, I got this idea that I would write a book about education and why it’s so important to Koreans around the world, not just Koreans in South Korea. When South Koreans go elsewhere, they carry this real attachment to this idea that education will be a pathway to success.
They also have a lot of feelings of regret and disappointment, as well as a sense of triumph, about education. But it was very controversial – this topic. I thought, “OK, well, I’m going to write this book.”
What I didn’t realize was that when I connected education and diaspora, just how big the subject was. I needed to understand what this meant for people who let’s say ended up in Australia, the U.K. or the United States.
And, of course, in the United States, every single state is almost like its own country. It’s so different.
It was great because it’s a wonderful, big topic to wrap your mind around and to also dig into, but it took a long time.
BAIK: I know you’ve said you start writing a new novel with one question.
LEE: Several big questions, but I did have one central question.
I wanted to understand why does education matters so much to Koreans…The more I learned about it, the more I realized it wasn’t just education. What they’re really talking about is broken dreams, status, certification, transactionalism and the networks that alumni associations bring.
There are so many different aspects of education. I thought, “OK, well, some of it was disappointing. I didn’t like what I saw.”
Then I realized what I really care about is wisdom.
What’s the point of wisdom? And how is wisdom different from education? Or intelligence? Because I’ve seen a lot of people who are intelligent, very well educated and really impressive, and they were not very wise.
BAIK: So who are the characters you wrote to be the wise figures in this book?
LEE: Every single character believes they’re approaching a kind of wisdom. I think all human beings think they’re getting wiser, I hope.
And yet we differ philosophically in every way. Not everybody thinks wisdom is the same thing.
In terms of characters, I focus on the Koh family. I wanted them to be decent people who have terrible things happen to them.
I guess it’s sort of childish, but there’s a part of me that really wanted to know: Why do terrible things happen to good people?
And how do you respond to them with wisdom?
BAIK: A lot of terrible things do happen to the Koh family.
I should probably make sure we’re on the same page to all those who are watching, because “American Hagwon” is what it’s called. We’ll dissect “Hagwon” in just a little bit, but essentially it follows the Koh family from 1997 to 2008, which follows the pattern of the big social novels that you’ve become famous for.
“Pachinko” is like that. “Free Food for Millionaires,” your first book, is also like that.
The Koh family runs into all these kinds of trials: loss, the loss of friendships, financial instability and the loss of loved ones as they strive for a better life. They move from Korea to Australia to Orange County, California, and the kids end up working at a tutoring center in California, hence the word “hagwon,” which you and I are so familiar with.
It essentially means a for-profit educational institution, or any after-school program where you can learn something, right? Just to make sure everybody watching is on the same page.
You talk about writing something that is so important to Korean people. This idea of hagwon education is also so important to Korean people, but you’re writing for the masses.
How did you balance that, you know, wanting to be universal and wanting to speak to many more people than just Korean people?
LEE: Well, I write about Koreans, and Koreans are human beings. The interests and issues we have are universal. I don’t think they’re specific to a minority people.
I don’t see myself as a minority. I see myself as the center of my own universe and my own interpretation. I think everybody actually does.
It’s really nice because when I study very, very specifically about the Korean community in diaspora, I’ve noticed that other people are interested, especially in themes like education, which every human being must struggle with this question.
I’m telling you this is what Koreans believe, and what you feel about it is important to me, too. I believe Americans are facing a tremendous education crisis in this country. Statistically speaking, America is not being globally competitive.
This is not something Americans want to talk about, but our reading levels, math levels, our critical-thinking skills and media literacy has fallen every single year. We’re actually at a crisis point. And I think that’s why I get out here and talk about these things, because I really care about America.
BAIK: But it’s also a hidden problem because many of the characters in this book, and in reality, too, strive for an American education. All of the Ivy League schools are in America.
Korean people come here because they believe the education system is better here.
Is there a contrast there with what you believe?
LEE: It’s not really about what I believe. America has the greatest higher education institutions in the world.
Why? Because we have tremendous resources dedicated to research. Higher education, especially universities, is really designed to produce research. We do that very well, and that’s why these schools are so great. And that’s why these endowments are so huge.
That said, if you look at the average American child today, globally speaking, they’re falling behind in terms of what they’re able to do.
Right now, there is a crisis of chronic absenteeism in public schools across America. If you talk to any public school teacher, they’ll tell you it’s a serious post-COVID problem because parents are allowing their kids to opt out of attending classes.
So why do foreigners and immigrants come here and believe? It’s because they want to have that higher education.
They have different educational values than what’s going on in this country.
BAIK: So personally, what was the “aha” moment that led to the curiosity to dig deeper into the education system here?
LEE: Well, I’m an American, and I’m also watching American kids really suffer.
The incarceration rate in this country is outrageous. A lot of it is caused by a lack of education.
I think our public education system has failed many, many kids in this country.
Every single state has a different set of standards. And honestly, the Ivy League isn’t that interesting to me. If you really think about how tiny that number is, what really matters is actually, if we have 330 million Americans of that group that are young, we have to educate everybody to at least a base competency.
BAIK: The way you achieve that through this book is not big theoretical or philosophical ideas. You do it through the Koh family and their intimate portrayal of life.
One line that really stood out to me was, “A mother is a child’s first teacher.”
You show education through the smallest moments. Not necessarily through professors or teachers, but through a mother.
Did you think about your own mother while writing this book? Or yourself as a mother? How did you bring those experiences into it?
LEE: Well, if you’re fortunate enough to become a parent, it’s a real privilege.
You suddenly have this little person in your life, and there’s no instruction manual. You have to figure things out.
If your child is healthy, that’s one set of circumstances. If your child isn’t healthy, that’s another set entirely that you have to learn to navigate.
You wonder: Will my child be able to hold up her head? Will she be able to sit up? Drink from a cup?
There are all these little milestones.
But if we really love a child, we have to figure out what that child needs in order to become her own person. That requires a certain level of competence and independence so she can function in the world and provide for herself.
That’s very important to me. And I think every parent and every guardian cares deeply about that.
BAIK: I think Helen Koh, the mother in this book, is especially heartbreaking. Everyone’s storyline is heartbreaking. Even the villains in the book are people you can empathize with.
The characters are complex. They’re not simply one-dimensional villains.
Where did the inspiration for these characters come from? Everyone is navigating something different. Did you bring personal elements into that process as well?
LEE: Well, I think you’re complex. I’m complex. Everybody is complex.
If you really look at the full picture of a person’s life, not just the good parts or the bad parts, and you truly get to know them, their story becomes much richer. One thing I’ve done throughout all my research around the world is spend time with and really listen to ordinary people who aren’t famous.
Usually what they talk to me about is, “How do I afford rent? How do I get to work? How do I feed my kids? How do I get through each day?”
We can talk about the bond market. We can talk about the affordability crisis.
But at the end of the day, you still have to go to work. You still have to take care of your children. Your child has a homework problem and you’re thinking, “I don’t know how to solve that.”
There are so many situations where ordinary people aren’t getting the support they need. And that really troubles me.
BAIK: As a Korean American reading this book, and as someone who speaks Korean, there were moments when I felt like I was reading the dialogue in English, but my brain was interpreting it in Korean.
LEE: That’s exactly what I wanted you to do.
In a way, I’m listening to conversations from my interviews, and sometimes the people are speaking Korean.
You should be imagining that they’re actually speaking Korean. I indicate when they’re speaking English, but there are many times when the characters are speaking Korean even though you’re reading the dialogue in English.
BAIK: But what if only people like me recognize that?
LEE: Oh, not at all. Most of my readers aren’t Korean.
It’s a kind of ventriloquism, in a way, and also a kind of transcription.
And it’s really difficult to do. It took me years and years to figure out how to make that work.
BAIK: Wait, so how did you do it?
LEE: Because I’m trying to be almost multilingual in the way I hear people. I’m paying attention to cadence and rhythm, and to the kinds of expressions people use in different languages.
BAIK: Yes, because there are certain expressions that are written in English, but they don’t feel like English-language idioms. They feel like something someone would say in Korean.
I thought that was really interesting.
LEE: It took me a long time to figure out how to do that.
BAIK: Beyond technique, let’s talk about the broader themes. You portray Korean ways of thinking, workplace culture and other aspects of Korean life that many readers may not understand.
Did you ever feel like you had to balance cultural specificity and accuracy against universality? Did you ever find yourself pulling back because something felt too specific?
LEE: No, no, no. Readers are smart. Really smart.
If you give readers the real thing, they’ll go with you. If you hold back the truth, then there’s no point in reading the book.
Even though my work is fiction, I write social realism. I only ask readers to pay attention to things that matter, especially things that move the story forward.
Then something remarkable happens. You have this book, this inert object. A reader opens it, and suddenly the object comes alive. In the reader’s mind, all these gaps are constantly being filled in.
My first readers were non-Korean readers.
And while I’m always happy when Korean readers in the diaspora connect with my work, the reality is that I’ve read countless books from cultures that aren’t my own.
When I read Tolstoy in translation, I don’t think, “This is just a Russian story.”
I think, “These are people falling in love when they shouldn’t have fallen in love. This is a woman who chose the wrong path. This is a man who joined the military when he shouldn’t have.”
Those stories break my heart.
And in the process of having my heart broken, I experience catharsis. I feel the release of all those emotions.
That’s why we come to art.
BAIK: I love that. Although I will say it’s a privilege to read this as a Korean American.
LEE: I’m so glad. Thank you for saying that.
BAIK: Starting with your first book, it has meant a lot to see Korean-American protagonists and Korean-American families represented on the page.
The family in this novel eventually settles in California, and so much of their story feels familiar to me.
On a personal level, it’s been really meaningful to see your characters feel so real and to see Korean-American stories told in a way I hadn’t really encountered elsewhere.
LEE: I’m so glad.
To me, Korean people are fascinating. We have so many epic stories.
In a way, I’m always surprised these stories haven’t been covered more often.
When I was writing about Koreans in Japan, I kept thinking there must be another English-language novel about Koreans in Japan somewhere. But for adult readers, there really wasn’t.
And I thought, “How could that be?”
It’s such an important part of Korean history and of the Korean experience.
At one point I thought, “Maybe nobody wants this. Maybe nobody wants to read this story in English.”
But I couldn’t let it go.
I didn’t have a contract. I didn’t have an agent. I just knew I had to write it.
I wanted the book to be enjoyable to read, but I also wanted it to be accurate because I wasn’t seeing that story told anywhere else.
I feel the same way about “American Hagwon” and “Free Food for Millionaires.”
I wanted Koreans in the diaspora to be portrayed accurately and fairly.
I don’t think it should be propaganda. I don’t think it’s about presenting everyone as wonderful.
But I do think it should be fair.
BAIK: So this is all part of a diaspora quartet. Where are you in your final book, The Marshall Plan?
LEE: I just started.
BAIK: OK. Which means research.
LEE: A lot of research, a lot of interviews.
It’s really been so cool because I’ve actually been meeting women and men who worked as nurses and miners in Germany…The book is called “The Marshall Plan.” It’s about the nurses and miners who went to Germany and sent their Deutschmarks back to South Korea.
But it’s also about Koreans who went to Europe to become intellectuals and artists, such as singers, violinists and painters, and they went all throughout Europe.
It’s also about women who married American GIs and sent money back to their families.
So it’s really about the idea of remittances. What happened to the money that actually was sent back to South Korea to help rebuild the country? And who got credit?
BAIK: So how did you land on that topic?
LEE: I think it’s the last novel I want to write.
It’s going to take me a while.
BAIK: Wait, period?
LEE: Probably, yeah.
BAIK: Really?
LEE: I think so, yeah. I’m 57, and then there’s a memoir that I promised to write after that.
Then I’m going to rest after. I’m going to go to Disneyland.
BAIK: You’ve written this diaspora quartet because you wanted to capture different aspects of the Korean diaspora. Was that the goal initially?
LEE: Partly.
Part of that’s true, and a part of it’s really the fact that I really believe that all of us have to study diaspora because it’s the modern condition.
Every American is going to experience some form of diaspora because we’re already experiencing environmental diaspora. There are places where people can no longer remain in their homes because there isn’t enough water.
That’s happening in America right now. Water supplies are running out, groundwater tables are disappearing, and suddenly a house that once had value no longer does.
People have to move somewhere else. That’s environmental diaspora, and it’s happening in America.
There’s also economic diaspora. Jobs disappear from certain industries, and people have to relocate.
When we start to understand that diaspora isn’t just about “those people” coming to our shores, we realize it’s actually a modern condition affecting everyone.
People move because they have to, or because they want to.
For example, if you grew up in Wayne, New Jersey, and then went to Northwestern University, you experienced a kind of educational diaspora. You could have stayed home, but you went somewhere else because you wanted an education that wasn’t available where you were.
And that experience changes you.
Every time we move, we change. That’s something I want to study.
BAIK: Going back to “The Marshall Plan,” you’ve approached diaspora from four different angles across these books.
Would “The Marshall Plan” feel definitive to you? Would it be the fourth piece of the puzzle? Would you feel like you’d said everything you wanted to say about diaspora?
LEE: I hope so.
But if I change my mind, I’ll withdraw that statement.
What I love is the idea of having four different perspectives.
“The Marshall Plan” will be my European novel. It’s also about military wives, because I don’t think they’ve really gotten their due.
In many cases, those women were looked down upon by South Koreans, even though their ability to sponsor relatives and send remittances home was incredibly important.
Likewise, when middle-class and elite Koreans went to Europe to become opera singers, violinists and artists, they brought something valuable back as well. They brought back a kind of cultural remittance.
All of that is part of the story of modern South Korea.
BAIK: What do South Koreans say about your work?
LEE: They’ve been incredibly kind.
They’ve been very receptive, and I think part of that is because they know how much I care about getting things right.
BAIK: Can we jump into some lighter questions?
LEE: Sure. We’ve covered some heavy topics.
BAIK: What are you reading right now? You’re traveling. Do you have a book with you?
LEE: I do.
BAIK: What is it?
LEE: I’m reading a forthcoming book by Shyamalak Hamze. I think it’s called “Impunity.” I just received the galley.
BAIK: Can you share your thoughts even though it’s not out yet?
LEE: Oh, it’s great. It’s great.
BAIK: I know you’re a big fan of 19th-century novelists, but do modern writers influence you as well?
LEE: Definitely.
One writer I’d recommend is William Trevor. He passed away a few years ago.
If you’re looking for something short, there’s a wonderful book called “Two Lives.” The first novella in it is “Reading Turgenev.”
It’s about 100 pages long, and it will absolutely knock your socks off.
BAIK: I’ll add that to my list.
Now that we’re in October and heading into fall, what books would you recommend for people looking for something cozy?
LEE: One book I really love, even though it sounds a little sad, is “Less” by Andrew Sean Greer.
I think it came out in 2017.
It’s not a long book, and it’s about a man turning 50 who has to endure the humiliation of attending his ex-boyfriend’s wedding.
He’s also considered a midlist writer, so he’s not especially successful.
On paper, it sounds like a story about disappointment and humiliation, but there’s so much warmth, lightness and humor in it.
It’s lovely.
BAIK: It’s kind of the Gilmore Girls of books.
LEE: I don’t know Gilmore Girls very well, so I can’t really speak to that.
BAIK: You’ve said before that you’re a big music fan.
As a writer, who are some of the best songwriters in your opinion?
LEE: Oh, gosh, I’m not really qualified to answer that.
But there are artists I think write wonderful music. Some are a little old-school, like ‘Til Tuesday and the Indigo Girls.
And a modern singer-songwriter I think is fantastic is Griff. G-R-I-F-F.
She’s probably more from your generation, or maybe even younger.
BAIK: I was going to say, I know that one.
Looking at your own books, do you heavily annotate them, or do they stay in pristine condition?
LEE: Oh, I write all over them. Lots of marginalia.
BAIK: Is it commentary? Opinions? What do your notes look like?
LEE: They’re pretty messy.
If I’m preparing to have a conversation with another author, you’ll see Post-it notes everywhere, markings all over the pages and folded corners.
BAIK: Because you’re giving feedback?
LEE: In a way.
The way I read actually has a lot to do with architecture. I’m trying to figure out what an author is trying to build.
Part of me reads for pleasure, and that’s important.
But when I’m trying to understand how a writer accomplished something, it becomes almost like surgery.
It’s very technical.
At that point, I’m studying craft.
BAIK: My last fun question.
“Pachinko” was adapted into an Apple TV+ series. If “American Hagwon” were adapted for television, do you have thoughts about who should play the characters?
LEE: There are people I’ve already had conversations with about that, so I can’t really comment.
BAIK: Wait a second. Are you saying American Hagwon is going to become a TV show?
LEE: I’m saying it could.
There are people who are interested.
BAIK: Without disclosing anything, do you have thoughts on casting? I know you wouldn’t necessarily have final say. You’re not the casting director. But are there actors you’d like to see in those roles?
LEE: I would like to see South Korean actors cast in the South Korean roles.
There are so many talented South Korean actors who speak English exceptionally well.
That’s something I would definitely advocate for.
BAIK: We’ll keep an eye on that.
You’ve got a busy day ahead. You’re appearing tonight at Evanston Township High School at 7 p.m. for a live audience book talk and book giveaway. No registration is required, so anyone watching this early can still attend.
Before we wrap up, is there anything we didn’t touch on that you’d like to add?
LEE: Just that it was a pleasure speaking with you.
BAIK: Likewise. Thank you so much.
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