Greg Sargent: This is The Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.
Amanda Marcotte: Thanks for having me.
Joy Behar (audio voiceover): So the thing about him is that he’s so jealous of Obama, because Obama is everything that he is not: trim, handsome, happily married, and can sing Al Green’s song “Let’s Stay Together” better than Al Green. And Trump cannot stand that. It’s driving him crazy. Jealousy is not a.… Green is not a good color.
Marcotte: Nothing hurts more than the truth, right? She’s right about Trump’s particular problem, but I think she hit on something that is bigger and deeper and maybe why he thinks this is going to connect with his base: So much of the MAGA movement really is driven by this jealousy that they can’t admit to themselves. I hate to go to Hannah Arendt this early in your podcast, but her writing about Eichmann in Israel really got a lot of people misunderstand the “banality of evil” comments. But she was basically talking about that—that he was a mediocre man and his only real pathway to importance, power, whatever, is to just go Nazi.
Sargent: Well, I’ll tell you what, I think that really explains why the responses to these types of things from the White House and MAGA are always oriented around belittling. That’s what happened here as well. The White House ran to their dutiful propagandists at Fox News, unleashed a furious statement. I’m going to read from it, “Joy Behar is an irrelevant loser suffering from a severe case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. It’s no surprise that The View’s ratings hit an all time low last year.” Now Amanda, “The View” responded to this by saying their viewership is actually up, but note how for Trump and the White House, everything has to come back to this idea that Trump is in people’s heads. He’s in critics’ heads. He’s psychologically dominating them. You hear this garbage all the time. This megafantasy is so bizarre. They organize their entire emotional lives around the fantasy that liberals are psychically suffering torment because of Trump’s world-historical success. Can you talk about that weird tick on their part?
Sargent: The problem with this is that he happens to be in control of the vast law enforcement bureaucracy under the federal government. I want to read another line from the White House’s statement to that effect: “She should self-reflect on her own jealousy of President Trump’s historic popularity before her show is the next to be pulled off air.” That’s a pretty straightforward threat. Retract the criticism of dear leader or we just might use our power to get your show canceled. Your thoughts?
Sargent: Well, this is certainly even more alarming when you listen to Federal Communications Commission Chair Brendan Carr’s response to this whole thing. After it all happened, Fox News had Carr on and asked him if “The View” is now going to face retribution. Listen to this exchange.
Brendan Carr (audio voiceover): Look, it’s entirely possible that there’s issues over there. Again, stepping back this broader dynamic, once President Trump has exposed these median gatekeepers and smashed this facade, there’s a lot of consequences.
Marcotte: I try to not be shocked and frightened by everything that the Trump administration does in part because, as you said, they’re trying to get in our heads and they’re trying to make us afraid. But I’d be lying if I said that didn’t scare me. It scared me. The First Amendment is about as ironclad as it gets. Now, I know that the Trump administration doesn’t think anything in the Constitution is ironclad. They’ve come after birthright citizenship, which is also as ironclad as it gets. But we should all.… If anybody has any doubts that Donald Trump wants to be a fascist dictator, and I think there is still a lot of people who would call that Trump Derangement Syndrome or something like that—this is what he’s doing. He is literally saying he has the power to cancel TV show and then he’s sending out one of his minions to say that they’re going to use the federal authority that exists for legitimate reasons to regulate advertising and business interests to silence somebody because she said something that hurt the president’s feelings. I want to remind people: All she said was he’s jealous of Obama, which anybody with two eyeballs and a brain can see.
Marcotte: Yeah, and not too happily married if you’re promising [your wife] you’re going to rename the Kennedy Center after her because the Epstein situation is heating up and she’s probably mad all over again.
Marcotte: Yeah, I’m sure that Trump either watches “The View” or that was flagged for him. And Joy Behar is exactly the kind of woman that almost couldn’t be more well designed to just drive him up the wall because she is exactly the smart New York feminist that has always sneered at Donald Trump his entire life.
Sargent: Yeah, he’s weak right now. And it’s not just “The View” he’s lashing out at; it’s South Park. He basically said that they’re bad. I don’t have the exact quote in front of me, but the Rolling Stone reported that he’s been calling them fourth rate or something because they put out an episode that really went after Trump hard, including a pretty devastatingly funny penis joke about him. And also [they] just made him look fat and old and weak, what he almost certainly looks like with his clothes off. And they humiliated him, but I think he loves to lash out and have these feuds with celebrities like that. I think in his mind, that would be how he’d spend all of his time anyway: just getting pressed for yelling at Rosie O’Donnell, then Joy Behar, and South Park, and whatever.
Sargent: Yeah, and that makes me want to step back and get at the big picture here. I think something else is going on under the surface as well. Remember when Trump won the election, there was all this talk about how the culture was really turning toward Trumpism. He seemed to really have his finger on a pulse that that maybe others didn’t; that was the sense that was out there. But now his numbers are in the toilet. As I said, his approval on immigration is 38 percent in this new poll—abysmal. Clearly, the culture has turned against Trump’s immigration crackdown. The culture was supposed to rally behind authoritarianism and state-sponsored cruelties to immigrants and white nationalism and so forth. But that’s not happening.
Marcotte: I think that you’re right. I think they’re going to try to ratchet things up because they’re going to try to force what you can only get through persuasion, which is people to like you. This discussion is actually making me think.… I think a lot of us felt early on like this wasn’t the country. This second Trump election, I think, hit a lot of us even harder because it wasn’t a fluke—and it made us feel like this wasn’t the America that we thought it was. Right or left, I think most of us felt like Americans view themselves as independent, freedom-loving people.
Marcotte: Yeah, and not cruel. And I think that it was very disturbing to us to think that maybe a majority—even—of Americans are fine with being ruled by a fascist dictator who won’t even let you make dick jokes about him. It’s heartening to see that the polling shows that a lot of people.… What it was was they just weren’t paying close attention, but now they have no choice but to be reminded of who Donald Trump really is. And he’s worse this time around. That part—what I thought America always was actually turns out to be there. People are like, We don’t like ICE agents kicking in people’s doors. These concentration camps, what are they talking about? And I don’t think that cracking down on comedy and freedom of speech and Joy Behar is going to work for them. I think it’s going to make people mad because very fundamental to how Americans see ourselves is our ability to talk back to our leaders and and make fun of them.
Marcotte: I think they have convinced themselves that the only real Americans are the people that voted for Trump, but even a lot of them don’t like what they’re seeing. And I think honestly [they] voted against Democrats more than they voted for Trump. They don’t consider people like you and me to be real Americans. They don’t consider even a lot of the Joe Rogan audience that just voted impulsively for Trump to even be real Americans. If I was going to guess, I would say the percentage of Americans that are just straight-up authoritarians is what it always has been, which was 25 to 30 percent. It’s never really been more than that. And I think the more Trump plays to that, the more he’s going to shrink it just down to those people.
Sargent: Yeah. Well, I think the bottom line is that Stephen Miller and Trump believed on a very deep level that there’s a latent authoritarian white nationalist majority in this country and there just isn’t.
Sargent: Yeah, well, let’s hope it’s as small as it’s starting to look. Let’s hope it keeps shrinking because that’s our way out of this. That’s the only way out that I can see. Amanda Marcotte, great pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for coming on.
Marcotte: Thanks for having me as usual. Great time.
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